Non-Coder seeking expertise of Coders, please!

Hi HMM – I’m coming to agree with this same perspective. As I continue to explore Blocs, I’m also finding a need to learn the basics of coding (HTML, CSS…and just beginning with Javascript)…and the question is ‘why?’

My experience with Blocs so far is that in its simplicity and beauty (and gosh darn is it pretty!!), it ‘feels’ in hand to be stiff and restricting, and this appears to me to be due to it’s foundation of Bootstrap. Of course, as a Muse user, it makes sense that I would feel this way…changing from a freeform canvas to a grid system is going to be like that!

Blocs actually redefines what drag & drop means. It’s not the wysiwyg version of drag & drop like Muse is, but rather is a ‘container’ drag & drop solution, and so it is structural not graphical. This is a huge difference in philosophy and therefore design experience. This is true for the other Framework based tools out there, too!

Classes is an understandable solution to increase (some) flexibility in styling/layout, but this solution adds another kind of project management complexity. To truly do well with classes there needs to be some html & css & Javascript skills in order to avoid the pot holes and frustrations of a bumpy design ride (again coming from Muse), unless one accepts being constrained by the out-of-the box mandated website construction process that favors structure over freedom, and that Blocs does very very well at, and deserves real praise for.

Oddly, as you suggest, if i can master sufficiently html,css/js/php in order to independently control Blocs, then Pinegrow does become more attractive due to its open nature. The question for me is ‘will I sufficiently master’ those coding languages, and if not, then Blocs is an alternative to Muse.

One thought I have (now that I’ve learned about it) is wether or not CSS GRID can be incorporated into Blocs?? This would add more flexibility to layout, which my guess is would change the user experience while designing.

Now, if API does provide what I hope it will, that will be a fantastic step forward, not withstanding your argument of preferring native Blocs-brics, rather then relying on 3rd party creatives. But your concerns could also be a smoother experience in Blocs than it was with Muse if the 3rd party folks and Norm are cozy and well-coordinated.

Time will tell…

As i’ve learned as a former architect, simplicity often takes greater effort to pull off gracefully than the term ‘simplicity’ implies.

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Yes…I understand. Having been involved in architectural and as a magazine editor …
Layout is basically Blocs…spacial perception etc.
The mixed purpose of a website is first to give information presented in a useable format …UX

You know the crazy stuff architects have come up with over the years…some a great some really bad not livable or usable spaces but boy did they win some awards.

The trend for websites is a “layer cake” delivery. We expect the nav at the top. Yeah…real clever…let’s move it below the fold where no one will see it. Crazy.
Similar to let’s move the steering wheel to the back seat…that will really be different. LOL.

I do think Blocs is or would be easier with many more Brics and blocks included to cover more (not all!) Design scenarios.

A mobile menu with left, center, right. I don’t want to create the code I could just as easily do in Pinegrow or any editor. That’s what I thought the whole idea was of drag and drop even if it’s bootstrap. :grinning::slight_smile:

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…we used have these design philosophy conversations all the time about wether ‘bigger, faster, newer’ equated to better! Of course it doesn’t. When function governs form, and form is ‘responsive’ to function, then nature prevails, and when nature prevails, beauty is evident.

Blocs is beautiful, and the question remains if its beauty constrains function or enhances it.

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What do you do when you go and look at the code in a development tool (so you can actually see all the code) and you find an error in the way the code was written?

For example…I had to go through creating a class to center the drop down text in the mobile menu.

Again (beating a drum here) it really should be an easy alignment or center text selection option rather than having to go and create the whole thing in code to just center the text. Tedious.

Anyway the code was written this way…it’s wrong.

…nav li a

Instead of

.nav li a

Two dots instead of one. Again the only way I know how to access the raw code is to go to another editor to fix it. …but then you can’t reopen it in Blocs.
Is there a “secret way” to gain entry to “all the code” within Blocs without leaving Blocs?

Even here on this post I put two dots in and three sho up.

I put one dot in by accident in the Blocs class dialog box. It added a second.

…nav>li>a{
text-align:center;
}
.nav li a{
text-align:center;
}
/* = Text Mobile Alignment Classes

I did this out of coding habit…but I removed the dot and let Blocs add the dot instead except…blocs didn’t remove it.

hey HMM – so I just learned about two apps, and I’m not saying they are better or preferable than Blocs, but they do distinguish themselves as true drag & drop apps.

One is a desktop app called Everweb – watching this is pretty convincing in regards to ease of use, and with the html widget & html snippets widget it appears to be an open codable tool: EverWeb's Scroll Position Feature - YouTube

Another is an in-brower tool called UIeditor, which appears fancier and powerful as well.

Perhaps some of the ease of use functionality those tools have will/can finds their way into Blocs someday…? Who knows…

You’re forgetting one big factor. Your sites need to be responsive this day in age, Blocs may feel restricted and not free form, but that’s because it automatically handles a lot of the work so your site is responsive, meaning it looks great on any device.

Free form web design apps don’t really make this clear, but you could end up doing 10x the work to get your site looking right across all devices possibly more.

Blocs is more than a name, its a description of the paradigm for the app. Just like Lego, Blocs is not high fidelity.

I am working on a more simplistic way to move objects which is a little more free form but not on the level of a graphic editor. That will ship in the not so distant future.

Blocs is a compromise of creating decent responsive code and ease of use. Don’t be sucked in by ease of use wysiwyg unless the tool delivers on site code quality and responsive features.

How a site works for its visitors is far more important than how easy it is to create, especially if big compromises like the responsiveness of the site are made.

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Don’t waste energy on feature-envy. Use what is available, not what you want to be available, and put up a good case for the feature to be added to blosapp rather than rave about other tools. Those other tools aren’t perfect either (or we would all be using them).

If you want complete flexibility in your designs, understanding CSS/HTML/Javascript will be required and when you do you’ll be able to build just about anything.

Without that understanding blocsapp will still allow you to build attractive, functional websites that work with multiple form factors but you’ll need to compromise and be inventive.

Blocsapp, like all other software, is a work in progress. Norm is doing a great job of growing blocsapp and it grows better as time goes by.

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I don’t really need a wsywig app in the true sense of the word. I like the simpler code that dragging an element brings. A nav bloc/bric, header, 3-5 image with header, footer, text and description copy, video, audio, forms, etc. there are just obvious functionality in having a larger variety of elements would bring. They are Not a wish list of botique features. They are essential website function and design elements.

To a large degree the way a site looks in modern times has an “expectancy” these days. I just want a lot of native included elements to be there. The app will be more complete.

Right now having to go and code simple things like creating classes just to center the text on the mobile menu is just one of many bottlenecks in creating a site fast. Images, Fonts, Color and copy will provide the basic branding and important elements.
Users have come to expect certain positioning of elements. :grinning:
And Everweb is Adaptive like Muse first was. That’s not as an efficient way to build a site. There is a lot of poor code. I know, I know code Schmode you say!

Good code does matter. Blocs code looks pretty good compared to what other apps create.

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@DanielF I don’t understand the significance of the Everweb Example you posted. Blocs has these features and are just as simple to implement. Instead of moving lines around on a page, Blocs just lets you hyperlink to any bloc id on your page (same as scroll to target). Furthermore, Blocs also has an HTML widget which works perfectly, so I don’t see where Everweb holds any significant advantage!!!

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It’s probably just the appearance GUI seems more intuitive. But as I told Daniel it’s not responsive it’s adaptive and the code is not the best.
Unlike most other apps like Muse I could easily hand off a Blocs project to another web developer and they could figure out the code …portability is there to a degree. I understand you can’t edit it and bring it back into Blocs.
If you ever looked at the code Muse wrote…wow what a mess.

Thank you Norm! This beautifully stated response gets to the heart of my investigation, and is responsive (pun intended…hehehe) to my learning at the level that I am, and I really sincerely appreciate the statement’s transparency.

This description provides the level of detail that guides a new user who is a non-coder – and therefore has limited facility to discern one tool from another – and so having this kind of description puts the power in the purchasers hand to make what in my industry we all ‘informed consent’.

So, to parse your opening statement, it’s not that “I’m forgetting…” it’s that I came to Blocs as a single website maker, which is likely what more’ non-coders’ are than ‘coders’, and which makes me one of the target audiences for Blocs, unless I’m mistaken. Therefor, ‘not knowing’ is more accurate in my case.

We single-website makers who are non-coders also have a range of facility with website making, both technically (using software) and graphically (creating something) and add to that some facility with code.

I for example began building my own website with GoLive, and then when Muse arrived, that was my new home. I attempted Dreamweaver way back then, but was overwhelmed by the coding-skill level that was needed – that said, skill-level-building is really about ‘time + frequency of use’ in order to learn and recall what is learned. Frequency of use is actually the bigger challenge in that equation when dealing with the quantity of knowledge that must be acquired and retained to allow for any sophistication in building/managing/updating a website, which only due to Muse’s demise, have I begun to study in earnest out of necessity to find a replacement that as a non-coder I could use to replicate all of my current site.

So knowing your ethos – or, to put it in design language, how it is you’ve defined the ‘problem’ that Blocs is the ‘solution’ for, is super helpful.

I also really truly appreciate how non-defensive you are on this forum…your sincerity and generosity in your words, support, and your product itself is clear to see! Its a brave process to be so openly involved with your users and this in an of itself speaks highly about you as a person and a creator! Bravo to you, as many have said in many ways here in the forum. :pray:

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Actually Daniel…there were and are many users who have created a real business building websites with wsywig and apps like Muse and Blocs. That’s why there is all the fuss over at Adobe. A lot of people had their income yanked out from under them.

It’s not that Adobe is extending the platform a while longer its that these people who built a business on that platform have clients finding out that the app used to build their site is being discontinued after being told how great it was.

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But HMM, this is actually not a small point, this is a fundamental to the architecture in which software solutions are based on…they either are or are not wysiwyg…and if a software is somewhere in-between, then I imagine the creator bumps into the blotted code dilemma that folks seem to be so highly critical of, and so is an organizing value in the creation of the software. The folks who are highly critical of blotted code, I’m assuming, are those who must deal with it. Folks who are non-coders do not have an opinion on this, are ignorant of it (me as a Muse user) and so do not notice. The only code-question for folks like this (me) is does the site work.

Now, to be fair, I did need to arm wrestle with my Muse site throughout my journey with it, including from adaptive to responsive (two terms which have a significance that I am continually learning about), and so the ‘theory’ that a responsive building software like Blocs will eliminate that kind of struggle is very enticing. However, the reality is that there becomes another kind of struggle…

Yes, this is the other kind of struggle HMM, this pin points the challenge, which apparently is an inherent problem with column frameworks.

If Norm has a creative future solution to this, as his post above suggests, FANTASTIC!!

yes, HMM, and I have deep sympathy for them…this is a very serious ‘life’ concern…not a game, not a minor issue, but a huge life changing event. Shame on Adobe for how they rolled out their announcement.

hi hendon52 – great question: to use an old adage, ‘beauty is the eye of the beholder’ and so on casual viewing, one appears easier than the other. Nothing to really be critical about (meaning the software), just a ‘first impression’ experience.

However it is that one is oriented to using software is neither good nor bad, its all in preference and comprehension.

‘Visual’ approaches tend to be more relatable than are ‘abstract’ or ‘numeric’ approaches…but even that can be overcome with the familiarity that comes with usage + time.

Daniel
I like your term “arm wrestle” …bad code is not just bad for those who have to work with it. “Bad code” or poorly written code effects a lot of other important things. Too much to go into here. Suffice it enough to say you may not know what going on under the hood of your car but it’s important to it’s performance, reliability and safety.
And there are different approaches to “drag and drop” and what it really means. I can drag and drop a whole header, hero, with navigation all set to go save adding copy images and styling fonts. I can drag and drop a rectangle as in Muse and go from there.

…and what would you have done differently?

Life changing? No. It’s software, not the real world.

thanks for the clarification, HMM.

Perhaps when Norm refers to ‘trade-offs’ it also covers the distinctions you are mentioning, too?

I’ve been thinking about the replies to this post once I simply mentioned ‘Everweb’ in the context of our drag&drop dialogue, and that in doing so it seems to have grabbed the attention of other’s to respond, while prior to doing that, only pauland and you responded to the original post subject of ‘can I’ and ‘how to’ override the Bootstrap CSS to accomplish more with the html-bric. And while I could see there were many views of the post, only you seemed to grasp the purpose of the post.

Something is very interesting to me in that sequence.

Mentioning Everweb spurred some advanced folks (perhaps advanced coders?) to jump to respond, and this indicates to me there’s a protection of Blocs, which is really well meaning, but also raises a need to recognize the differences we all have while sharing in common some other things.

It seems there is a ‘hierarchy of needs’ that underwrites conversations like these, and that such a hierarchy likely breaks down into those who use the tool as professional designers/developers, and those who do not.

These are important differences that set the tone for both the reading and the responding.

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That’s something that is a danger for anyone. We all rely on 3rd parties in one way or another and nothing is forever. That isn’t restricted to Adobe. We just need to adapt and move on.

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I would have given a 3yr to 5yr window. But then I’m not share-holder nor making a living by selling software, so I have no economic incentive to shorten that timeframe.

I actually don’t begrudge the change in the because my livelihood is not dependent on it, and so I can take an attitude to actually welcome it from the perspective that change can spur growth and discovery (clearly the path I’m now on). That said, I don’t live on this planet alone, and I can see the impact this change has on other’s that have a different relationship to Muse, and so I deeply recognize their suffering and the challenges they face in the short-term.

Looked at from a purely practical and economic impact level, Adobe’s initial announcement favored themselves not their customers who without question extended the value of Adobe’s product with the plethora of users who came to use Muse because of the 3rd party tools tools the extended the power of it, and opened up all the piggy-back enterprises, such as non-coding frontend professional developers who built careers (just what HMM has stated). It was a reciprocal relationship, where the power was unevenly held, however. This disruption is not a small thing for many, and even though it doesn’t impact me at that level, I’m awake enough to grasp it and feel for it.