hi hendon52 – great question: to use an old adage, ‘beauty is the eye of the beholder’ and so on casual viewing, one appears easier than the other. Nothing to really be critical about (meaning the software), just a ‘first impression’ experience.
However it is that one is oriented to using software is neither good nor bad, its all in preference and comprehension.
‘Visual’ approaches tend to be more relatable than are ‘abstract’ or ‘numeric’ approaches…but even that can be overcome with the familiarity that comes with usage + time.
Daniel
I like your term “arm wrestle” …bad code is not just bad for those who have to work with it. “Bad code” or poorly written code effects a lot of other important things. Too much to go into here. Suffice it enough to say you may not know what going on under the hood of your car but it’s important to it’s performance, reliability and safety.
And there are different approaches to “drag and drop” and what it really means. I can drag and drop a whole header, hero, with navigation all set to go save adding copy images and styling fonts. I can drag and drop a rectangle as in Muse and go from there.
Perhaps when Norm refers to ‘trade-offs’ it also covers the distinctions you are mentioning, too?
I’ve been thinking about the replies to this post once I simply mentioned ‘Everweb’ in the context of our drag&drop dialogue, and that in doing so it seems to have grabbed the attention of other’s to respond, while prior to doing that, only pauland and you responded to the original post subject of ‘can I’ and ‘how to’ override the Bootstrap CSS to accomplish more with the html-bric. And while I could see there were many views of the post, only you seemed to grasp the purpose of the post.
Something is very interesting to me in that sequence.
Mentioning Everweb spurred some advanced folks (perhaps advanced coders?) to jump to respond, and this indicates to me there’s a protection of Blocs, which is really well meaning, but also raises a need to recognize the differences we all have while sharing in common some other things.
It seems there is a ‘hierarchy of needs’ that underwrites conversations like these, and that such a hierarchy likely breaks down into those who use the tool as professional designers/developers, and those who do not.
These are important differences that set the tone for both the reading and the responding.
That’s something that is a danger for anyone. We all rely on 3rd parties in one way or another and nothing is forever. That isn’t restricted to Adobe. We just need to adapt and move on.
I would have given a 3yr to 5yr window. But then I’m not share-holder nor making a living by selling software, so I have no economic incentive to shorten that timeframe.
I actually don’t begrudge the change in the because my livelihood is not dependent on it, and so I can take an attitude to actually welcome it from the perspective that change can spur growth and discovery (clearly the path I’m now on). That said, I don’t live on this planet alone, and I can see the impact this change has on other’s that have a different relationship to Muse, and so I deeply recognize their suffering and the challenges they face in the short-term.
Looked at from a purely practical and economic impact level, Adobe’s initial announcement favored themselves not their customers who without question extended the value of Adobe’s product with the plethora of users who came to use Muse because of the 3rd party tools tools the extended the power of it, and opened up all the piggy-back enterprises, such as non-coding frontend professional developers who built careers (just what HMM has stated). It was a reciprocal relationship, where the power was unevenly held, however. This disruption is not a small thing for many, and even though it doesn’t impact me at that level, I’m awake enough to grasp it and feel for it.
Daniel, some of us have seen conversations exactly like this before. You can substitute everweb for another tool and substitute blocsapp for a second tool. There are always people familiar more familar with the technologies involved than others. It really doesn’t matter.
What does matter is that blocsapp is what it is and debating what it should be, or could be does nothing that gets anyone any closer to building a great website.
I kind of feel I’m in some meeting of the computational philosophy society.
I have been directly affected ( not by Muse ) but by Adobe dropping technologies over the years and from technologies falling out of favour and not just Adobe stuff.
I think a years grace was reasonable and it was never going to be a popular announcement. We can always give Adobe a kicking (there’s plenty to complain about), but on the other side of the fence Adobe has huge development costs (even with a substantial part of their development effort being based in India) and if a project is going nowhere it’s natural that they stop that development effort to cut back on their loses.
One of the specific problems with desktop development systems is that they quickly run into issues as the OS and associated platforms go out of sync with the eco-systems they rely upon and you have to wonder how that can be supported.
No, I am compelled by a mad person to hit the keyboard.
[quote=“DanielF, post:40, topic:3685”] And you are free to share your motivation for continuing to do so, as well.
[/quote]
I am and I’m also free to not do so.
It was poorly managed poorly executed business decisions. A team of engineers and graphics designers who failed to bring in the right people from a variety of necessary disciplines in the web development arena.
Topped off by horrible customer service. I can speak from experience having managed very large corporations as both in the position of CEO and Chief Marketing Officer.
I’m semi retired now but I watch the “comings and goings” of many who have failed and those that succeed …
You may be right but it’s one of those scenarios where we can be wise because we aren’t inside the organisation. Either way Muse is effectively dead. No company wants to pour money into a dead-end.
It’s a public company. I owned a lot of stock. I watched it go up from around 70 bucks. Inside info is available to those interested. Adobe is shifting its attention to “Big Data”…I grew up with Steve Jobs and I lived not far from the Adobe Creek Adobe is named after.
It’s not inside info. Just a business analysis. It’s easy to see.
Don’t take it personal thats a historical occurrence with this community of users.
Some really interesting dialogue happening throughout this thread.
The general discussion about more core Blocs and Brics has likewise been duly noted historically by various users previously over time. Given both of their centralized meaning as part of the apps workflow, its proper and ok to expect more from the app natively out of the box in various ways. Even quick build sites require more features in todays dynamic connected web, static sites are dying making the need of the “basics” a far more reaching scope within modern web requirements for most all sites.
I think @norm is aware of such things, so time will tell regarding how things progresses.
I was gonna post originally but then just watched the discussion unfold.
Lets recap a bit (even though your orginal post has now been edited 8 times).
So in its current state, Blocs uses and is based upon Bootstrap. So the required associated CSS (bootstrap.css) and JS (bootstrap.js) for Bootstrap are already present, in addition to the jQuery library. Also since you mentioned it, you would not want to mix Foundation with Blocs, as Bootstrap and Foundation are two totally separate frameworks. That would become a mess and redundant quickly within the same site.
Since Blocs is a visual based app it already has many custom CSS classes and override styles already in place in the “style.css” which is exported with each site. When you use the Class Manager your custom class styles also get included into the “style.css” upon export.
In addition to the features this “style.css” provides with Blocs being a visual tool, it also includes the “blocs.js” file. This JS file also includes custom jQuery logic and overrides that allows for Blocs to be a visual approach with added functionality without requiring users to self code these functions for various features the app offers visually. Beyond the existing custom CSS and JS that Blocs already provides, it also already includes other libraries (Icon Libraries, Animate.css, Form Handling, etc.,) for various other things which allows the user to implement features through visual methods.
So beyond those aspects it then offers various methods for the user to add additional custom user CSS and JS, full CSS or JS libraries, etc. But when you get to this point you need to understand how to implement them via the HTML Bric, Page Settings Add Code and Attachments, ID’s, Custom Classes, Sub-Classes, Selectors, Specificity, etc., along with any additional required setups and implementations regarding what you are trying to accomplish and implement.
As an example, in the case of Bootstrap Tabs, currently you would need to be aware of how the Bootstrap Tabs are constructed. What Classes to then override, what conflicts could occur with the already existing “style.css” and how to rename and organize things for possible conflicts, overrides and desired custom styling. As you may have already noticed Bootstrap Tabs are closely tied to the Bootstrap Nav. So perhaps that is part of the reason they are not included currently in Blocs given crossover and possible conflict and segregation with the Blocs Menu Manager, but only @Norm could speak on why various aspects of the Bootstrap framework are absent.
In addition to Bootstrap, you can also implement other vanilla HTML, CSS or JS if you desire and understand how to do so.
The following link may also prove helpful with general aspects as you try to implement custom styling.
You can also find full lists of the Bootstrap base class list by Googling, but the included Blocs "styles.css is already providing custom styling and overrides as mentioned above. One benefit is with Bootstrap being the most prevalent framework used on the web you can find examples and questions of people already encountering much if not all of what you hope to accomplish, once you know what you are looking for.
@Pauland, your post today in another thread seems likewise relative in this thread. I think in a nutshell this same “ease of transparency” in general is what @DanielF is referring to concerning classes and other feature aspects.
I am sure all Blocs users would be well pleased with such a method and approach. Hopefully Blocs 3 will remedy many of these areas and sticking points for users in the app.
Bloc_User – OMG, this is the most invaluable response I could ever had hoped for! Thank you Thank you Thank you. You are a true gentlemen (according to your avatar) and a precise and generous educator, and have cut to the core of my original question, especially in this passage:
This is what i wondered—what is the complexity involved to coordinate all of these integrated ‘parts’ in order to to restyle competently.
Since writing the original post, including as of last night, I have come to understand this complexity more clearly by everyday studying several sources on the ‘google’ via a variety of coding and Bootstrap Crash Courses, through youtube offerings. There are some really wonderful educators in this world!! Because of this, I can actually comprehend what you so generously wrote.
(btw, just an fyi: the edits to the original post mostly had to do with hitting ‘post’ to soon and so then re-reading and seeing I needed to speak more clearly, and one edit was because pauland had answer 1/2 of the original question effectively, so I removed that portion so others didn’t need to spend their valuable time to reply)
Thank you again for the fullness of your reply, it is very instructive and clarifying.
There are some missing entry points (data-attributes, … etc.,) plus various things could be simpler. But I believe @norm is aware of them and is looking to address various aspects for greater control. Hopefully for everyone things will continue to get easier in the future with various aspects and added features to Blocs.
Stay optimistic and keep learning in the meantime.
Don’t take it personal thats a historical occurrence with this community of users.